This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C151D8.C1977940
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Thank you Martin for the reply to my reply to Richard's original posting.
Here are some of
my notes
‘Dieu se retire.’ (Leon Bloy )
Islam might seem to be an exception, but appearances are deceptive.
The reason is not that Islam stands outside its time: from a Titanic point
of view, it is truly contemporary.
Dass der Islam eine Ausnahme zu machen scheint, darf nicht trügen; es
liegt nicht daran, dass er der Zeit überlegen, sondern daran, dass er -
titanisch gesehen - zeitgemäß ist.
How to translate "ueberlegen" and "zeitgemaess"? I will try a rude
transscription: ...The reason is not that Islam is "above" time (in a
dimension of indipendance which allows Islam to triumph on time) but, from a
Titanic point of view, corrisponding to time's demands.
Quite right, This is what I was trying to express in my posting and give
some potential reasons
for it, but of course there is much more that can be said, and certainly
not limited to my interp.
alone.
Allah se retire!
Once again quite correct or so it would seem. Still one must see that
there are two ways of looking at the matter one is the philosophical
perspective, which accords to your statement and the perspective of the
Real, in which this is not possible. God is always active or to quote a
famous sufi and Islamic theologian Al-Ghazali, "There are no secondary
causes." Yet in the Philosophical level, He has indeed retired for the
night.
...the benefit of a mooring, a way that gives meaning to ones actions
and behavior, while at the same time filling a vacuum that the "death of
god" has left in western culture. In a way making way for a return of the
divine in their life,
but there is a deception that lurks even here, Islam in its titanic
Aspect, which truthfully is not Islam at all but a deviant variation on a
theme.
A Muslim would be unwise to believe that Islam, outside of their
personal realm, exists today (!) and this is where many Muslims begin to
make mistakes.
... a Nihilism not unlike that suffered in the pre-revolutionary
Russia, resulting in the same lawlessness and desperation found in the
Russian Nihilist.
But what is the source of this anger? I propose it is the inability
of the Arabs and the Muslims, to a lesser degree, to cope with the advent of
the titanic.
Which is remembered by those who show a peculiar ability to corrispond
to the advent of the titanic:
After the caliph Mahmud's coffers had been emptied of gold replacing
the wealth of the Muslims with debt, the "sudden" need of oil (during the
second half of the 20. century) has filled again the coffers: wealth, no,
abbundance like in 1001 nights. Saddam's oil burning into nichilism.
Wealth:Bits of Paper and Blips on the computer screen, but the
abbundance of the 1001 nights is conspicuously missing. Oil burned into
nothing everywhere leaving the Arabs with nothing but crumbling sky-scrapers
and rusting Mercedes-Benzs.
The memory of former grandeur (when the greatest astronomers,
mathematicians and doctors where Arabs while the west was in obscure middle
age) and of the more recent decline which had empied the coffers has flown
together and thirst of power gives birth to a caravan of thoughts, a net in
which the oases are not a constant place (which the NATO could destroy) but
a constant source of will.
The carpet is flying again, but one can't escape the style of one's
epoche.
Yes, but the carpet flies as by what appears to be magic i.e.
technology, and it is indeed a spectacle of the titanic. It is magic to the
masses that don't understand how it works and it is technology to the
priests who make the carpet fly. Because Islam by its very nature is
Divine, this nihilistic and titanic "Islam" can not bring anything authentic
with it, it is limited to the flying carpet of technology which is woefully
inadequate.
Nichilism and Titanism can be considered a western feature, and it is
certainly true that occidentalization with its acceleration due to
tecnological facilities and its consumerism, often has alienated tissues of
ancient dignity (with the help of young people everywhere, the conflict
between generations is not western, it is an ubiquitarian consequence of
acceleration). But more than this it belongs to the style of our epoche. It
is a consequence of neatly human aspiration and activity, like astronomy,
mathematics and medicine. The west can be blamed either for its dark age or
for its age of enlightenment, but I think it is a pointless exercise to do
so. I do not feel like blaming the west for its success (and I do not feel
even like blaming drug producing contries for the way they try to export
misery to the west). I remember Macchiavelli who taught that Savonarola is
the example of how a prophet will end if he has no arms. Well, Bin Laden has
arms and to me they seem quite efficient. May be in the next decades we will
observe a "Titanic Intifada" against the USA.
I don't think the issue is to place blame per se, rather it is to try
to understand events inside of this greater event i.e. "über die Linie
gehen", or call it what you will. It is certainly not very distant from EJ's
own prognosis.
I would like to add that when a professor and Muslim friend of mine,
Abdalbasir Ojembarrena visited EJ and discussed this matter with him, EJ
asked about this aspect of the "modern" Islam, wondering if Islam could
really be like this? The reply was given by another Muslim Scholar, who told
EJ that Islam had yet to appear. Ojembarrena told me that EJ's response to
this answer was relief, that Islam did not posses these titanic traits.
So whether or not, there is a titanic intifada is not the question,
rather what is the authenic Islam and its relation to recent events?
I suppose there will be as a side-effect an acceleration (yes, that's
exactly the word! this is the titanic aspect) of conversions to Islam in
Europe. Like a Stockholm-syndrome. I ask Abdalbarr excuse because it seems I
do not distinguish between Islam and its titanic version. I do so within the
dimension of personal realm. But the acceleration of conversion is exactly
what I call "Allah se retire".
I am in no way offened. Though it could be seen as a sort of
Stockholm syndrome, that would have to come from Europeans and Americans who
actually had contact with the cells of those terrorists organisations. Thank
God that these people have little time to explain their demented version of
Islam, as they are too busy with their dialectical path of desperation and
resentment. I would rather say that the conversions come from an increased
desire to know what Islam is and then setting out to discover it for
oneself. This then leads those destined for it to accept Islam.
It might be equally difficult for a person to distinguish between
authentic Islam and the titanic version, as one is on the outside looking
in. Still, I can garantee the members of this list that there is a
difference, a portion of which I tried to lay out in the previous work.
We could see during the Kosovo War that the west wasn't ready to make
sacrifices for the values he was fighting for. German mothers founded a
movement because they didn't want their sons to die, and even worse: if the
NATO didn't fly so high (10 Km) but would have bombed Arkan's killing squads
from a 1000 meter distance, it would have been easy to destroy them saving
thousands of lives and avoiding the migration of tenthousands or
hundredthousands of refugees. But in this case - according the statistic
calculations - the NATO would have lost at least 4 pilots. 4! Four!
Well, the Islam apparently produces more spirit of sacrifice than the
laical wish for democracy.
Agreed, All of the wars in the balkans and elsewhere have demonstrated
a very important point: the high rhetoric of humanism is as hollow as a
chocolate easter bunny. You have hit the mark, when you say that the west
can not withstand even four losses. It shows the weakness of their "belief"
in their own value structure.
This is also reflected in the number of people who actually
participate in democracy.
In America it hovers around 40 to 50% of the population. The average
person does not have much confidence in a system where money sways opinion
and votes.
EJ's disscussion at the beginning of Der Waldgang is as pertinent
today as it was with regards to the regimes of the 50's, only now the
numbers have changed somewhat.
I remember one of J's notes, it's from the 9th august 74: he first
tells us about some cases of self-burning for example of Sphines (the
Macedonians called him Kalanus) who followed Alexander in India and decided
to burn himself when he felt ill for the first time in his life. Alexander
tried to prevent him from doing so, but then he ordered to built him a
funeral pyre. The army with its elephants, cavallery and infantery got into
formation, Kalanus greeted the sun, sank into prayer and one set fire on the
pyre. Some of the Indians jumped into the fire...
J however considers it a case of religious madness.
I am of the same opinion as EJ too, as I know the majority of the
world's Muslims consider Sept. 11 to equally be a case of religious madness
and desperation.
Also the Japanese, are you sure? I thought not. Certainly not one
with devote virgins.
Yes, that's right, I saw a program with interviews of Kamikazes who
survived. Because the emporer was a god and they died for him they were
promised the garden.
Thanks again for your response Martin,
Abdalbarr
------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C151D8.C1977940
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D050342317-10102001><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Thank=20
you Martin for the reply to my reply to Richard's original posting. Here =
are=20
some of </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D050342317-10102001><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>my=20
notes</FONT></SPAN><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><BR></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>‘Dieu se retire.’ =
(Leon Bloy<SPAN=20
class=3D050342317-10102001><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff> ) </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Islam =
might seem to=20
be an exception, but appearances are deceptive. The reason is not that =
Islam=20
stands outside its time: from a Titanic point of view, it is truly=20
contemporary.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dass der Islam eine Ausnahme zu =
machen scheint,=20
darf nicht tr=FCgen; es liegt nicht daran, dass er der Zeit =
<U>=FCberlegen</U>,=20
sondern daran, dass er - titanisch gesehen - <U>zeitgem=E4=DF</U>=20
ist.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>How to translate "ueberlegen" and =
"zeitgemaess"?=20
I will try a rude transscription: ...The reason is not that =
Islam=20
is "above" time (in a dimension of indipendance which allows =
Islam to=20
triumph on time) but, from a Titanic point of view, corrisponding to =
time's=20
demands. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D050342317-10102001>Quite right, This is what I was trying to =
express in=20
my posting and give some potential reasons</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D050342317-10102001>for=20
it, but of course there is much more that can be said, and certainly =
not=20
limited to my interp.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D050342317-10102001>alone.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>Allah se retire!<SPAN=20
class=3D050342317-10102001><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D050342317-10102001></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D050342317-10102001><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff>Once again quite correct or so it would seem. Still =
one=20
must see that there are two ways of looking at the matter =
one is=20
the philosophical perspective, which accords to your =
statement and=20
the perspective of the Real, in which this is not =
possible. God=20
is always active or to quote a famous sufi and Islamic theologian =
Al-Ghazali,=20
"There are no secondary causes." Yet in the Philosophical level,=20
</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D050342317-10102001>He has indeed retired for the=20
night. </SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DArial><FONT =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D050342317-10102001> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001>...the benefit of a mooring, a way that =
gives=20
meaning to ones actions and behavior, while at the same time=20
filling a vacuum that the "death of god" has left in western =
culture.=20
In a way making way for a return of the divine in their life, =
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
=
class=3D800265219-16092001></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FO=
NT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001>but there is=20
a deception that lurks even here, Islam in its titanic Aspect,=20
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff><FONT=20
face=3DArial><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001>which truthfully is =
not Islam at=20
all but a deviant variation on a=20
=
theme.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
=
class=3D800265219-16092001></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FO=
NT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001>A=20
Muslim would be unwise to believe that Islam, outside of their =
personal=20
realm, exists today <FONT color=3D#ff0000>(!) </FONT>and this is =
where many=20
Muslims begin to make mistakes.=20
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
=
class=3D800265219-16092001></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FO=
NT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001>... a Nihilism not unlike that=20
suffered in the pre-revolutionary Russia, resulting in the =
same=20
lawlessness and desperation found in the Russian=20
Nihilist.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
=
class=3D800265219-16092001></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FO=
NT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN=20
=
class=3D800265219-16092001></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FO=
NT><FONT=20
face=3DArial><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT =
face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT face=3DArial><FONT=20
=
color=3D#0000ff></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </=
DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>But what is the source =
of this anger? =20
I propose it is the <U>inability</U> of the Arabs and the Muslims, =
to a=20
lesser degree, to cope with the advent of the=20
titanic.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Which=20
is <U>remembered</U> by those who show =
a peculiar ability to=20
corrispond to the advent of the=20
titanic:</FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001>After the caliph Mahmud's coffers had =
been=20
emptied of gold replacing the wealth of the Muslims with =
debt,=20
t</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001>he "sudden" need of oil (during the =
second half=20
of the 20. century) has filled again the coffers: wealth, no, =
abbundance=20
like in 1001 nights. Saddam's oil burning into nichilism.<SPAN=20
class=3D050342317-10102001><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
=
class=3D050342317-10102001></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN class=3D050342317-10102001><SPAN=20
class=3D050342317-10102001><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Wealth:Bits of Paper=20
and Blips on the computer screen, but the abbundance of the 1001 =
nights is=20
conspicuously missing. Oil burned into nothing everywhere leaving =
the=20
Arabs with nothing but crumbling sky-scrapers and rusting=20
Mercedes-Benzs.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
=
class=3D050342317-10102001></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
size=3D2>The memory of former grandeur (when the greatest =
astronomers,=20
mathematicians and doctors where Arabs while the west was in =
obscure=20
middle age) and of the more recent decline which had empied the =
coffers=20
has flown together and thirst of power gives birth to a caravan of =
thoughts, a net in which the oases are not a constant =
place=20
(which the NATO could destroy) but a constant source of=20
will.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
size=3D2>The carpet is flying again, but one can't escape the =
style=20
of one's epoche.<SPAN class=3D050342317-10102001><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
size=3D2><SPAN=20
=
class=3D050342317-10102001></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
size=3D2><SPAN class=3D050342317-10102001><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff>Yes, but the=20
carpet flies as by what appears to be magic i.e. =
technology, and=20
it is indeed a spectacle of the titanic. It is magic to the masses =
that=20
don't understand how it works and it is technology to the =
priests who=20
make the carpet fly. </FONT> <FONT =
color=3D#0000ff>Because Islam=20
by its very nature is Divine, this nihilistic and titanic "Islam" =
can not=20
bring anything authentic with it, it is limited to the flying =
carpet of=20
technology which is woefully=20
inadequate.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
size=3D2>Nichilism and Titanism can be considered a western =
feature, and it=20
is certainly true that occidentalization with its acceleration due =
to=20
tecnological facilities and its consumerism, often has alienated =
tissues=20
of ancient dignity (with the help of young people everywhere, =
the=20
conflict between generations is not western, it is an ubiquitarian =
consequence of acceleration). But more than this it belongs=20
to the style of our epoche. It is a consequence of neatly =
human=20
aspiration and activity, like astronomy, mathematics and medicine. =
The=20
west can be blamed either for its dark age or for its age of=20
enlightenment, but I think it is a pointless exercise to =
do so.=20
I do not feel like blaming the west for its success (and I do not =
feel=20
even like blaming drug producing contries for the way they try to =
export=20
misery to the west). I remember Macchiavelli who taught that =
Savonarola is=20
the example of how a prophet will end if he has no arms. Well, Bin =
Laden=20
has arms and to me they seem quite efficient. May be in the =
next=20
decades we will observe a "Titanic Intifada" against the USA.<SPAN =
class=3D050342317-10102001><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
size=3D2><SPAN=20
=
class=3D050342317-10102001></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
size=3D2><SPAN class=3D050342317-10102001><SPAN =
class=3D050342317-10102001><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I don't think the issue is to place blame =
per se,=20
rather it is to try to understand events inside of this greater =
event i.e.=20
"=FCber die Linie gehen", or call it what you will. It is =
certainly not=20
very distant from EJ's own=20
prognosis.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN class=3D050342317-10102001><SPAN=20
=
class=3D050342317-10102001></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV=
>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN class=3D050342317-10102001><SPAN=20
class=3D050342317-10102001>I would like to add that when a =
professor and=20
Muslim friend of mine, Abdalbasir Ojembarrena visited EJ and =
discussed=20
this matter with him, EJ asked about this aspect of the "modern" =
Islam,=20
wondering if Islam could really be like this? The reply was given =
by=20
another Muslim Scholar, who told EJ that Islam had yet to appear.=20
Ojembarrena told me that EJ's response to this answer was relief, =
that=20
Islam did not posses these titanic=20
traits.</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN class=3D050342317-10102001><SPAN=20
=
class=3D050342317-10102001></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV=
>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN class=3D050342317-10102001><SPAN=20
class=3D050342317-10102001>So whether or not, there is a titanic =
intifada is=20
not the question, rather what is the authenic Islam and its =
relation to=20
recent events?</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
size=3D2><SPAN=20
=
class=3D050342317-10102001></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
size=3D2>I suppose there will be as a side-effect an acceleration =
(yes,=20
that's exactly the word! this is the titanic aspect) of =
conversions to=20
Islam in Europe. Like a Stockholm-syndrome. I ask Abdalbarr excuse =
because=20
it seems I do not distinguish between Islam and its titanic =
version. I do=20
so within the dimension of personal realm. But the acceleration of =
conversion is exactly what I call "Allah se retire".<SPAN=20
class=3D050342317-10102001><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
size=3D2><SPAN=20
=
class=3D050342317-10102001></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
size=3D2><SPAN class=3D050342317-10102001><SPAN =
class=3D050342317-10102001><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I am in no way =
offened. Though it=20
could be seen as a sort of Stockholm syndrome, that would have to =
come=20
from Europeans and Americans who actually had contact with the =
cells of=20
those terrorists organisations. Thank God that these people have =
little=20
time to explain their demented version of Islam, as they are too=20
busy with their dialectical path of desperation and =
resentment. I=20
would rather say that the conversions come from an increased =
desire to=20
know what Islam is and then setting out to discover it for =
oneself. This=20
then leads those destined for it to accept=20
Islam.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN class=3D050342317-10102001><SPAN=20
=
class=3D050342317-10102001></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV=
>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN class=3D050342317-10102001><SPAN=20
class=3D050342317-10102001>It might be equally difficult for a =
person to=20
distinguish between authentic Islam and the titanic version, as =
one is on=20
the outside looking in. Still, I can garantee the members of this =
list=20
that there is a difference, a portion of which I tried to lay out =
in the=20
previous work.</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT =
color=3D#000000><FONT=20
size=3D2><SPAN=20
=
class=3D050342317-10102001></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SP=
AN></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT =
color=3D#000000><FONT=20
size=3D2><SPAN=20
=
class=3D050342317-10102001></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SP=
AN></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
face=3DArial><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT =
face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT face=3DArial><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001>We could see during the Kosovo War that =
the west=20
wasn't ready to make sacrifices for the values he was fighting =
for. German=20
mothers founded a movement because they didn't want their sons to =
die, and=20
even worse: if the NATO didn't fly so high (10 Km) but would have =
bombed=20
Arkan's killing squads from a 1000 meter distance, it would have =
been easy=20
to destroy them saving thousands of lives and avoiding the =
migration of=20
tenthousands or hundredthousands of refugees. But in this case - =
according=20
the statistic calculations - the NATO would have lost at least 4 =
pilots.=20
4!=20
=
Four!</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV=
>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT size=3D2>Well, the Islam =
apparently produces=20
more spirit of sacrifice than the laical wish for democracy.<SPAN=20
class=3D050342317-10102001><FONT=20
=
color=3D#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></=
SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
=
class=3D050342317-10102001></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SP=
AN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D050342317-10102001><SPAN=20
class=3D050342317-10102001><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Agreed, All=20
of the wars in the balkans and elsewhere have demonstrated a very=20
important point: the high rhetoric of humanism is as hollow as a =
chocolate=20
easter bunny. You have hit the mark, when you say that the west =
can not=20
withstand even four losses. It shows the weakness of their =
"belief" in=20
their own value=20
=
structure.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN>=
</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D050342317-10102001><SPAN=20
=
class=3D050342317-10102001></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SP=
AN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D050342317-10102001><SPAN class=3D050342317-10102001>This =
is also=20
reflected in the number of people who actually participate in=20
=
democracy.</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D050342317-10102001><SPAN class=3D050342317-10102001>In =
America it=20
hovers around 40 to 50% of the population. The average person does =
not=20
have much confidence in a system where money sways opinion and=20
=
votes.</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D050342317-10102001><SPAN=20
=
class=3D050342317-10102001></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SP=
AN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D050342317-10102001><SPAN class=3D050342317-10102001>EJ's =
disscussion=20
at the beginning of Der Waldgang is as pertinent today as it was =
with=20
regards to the regimes of the 50's, only now the numbers have =
changed=20
=
somewhat.</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D050342317-10102001><SPAN=20
=
class=3D050342317-10102001></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SP=
AN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
face=3DArial><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT =
face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT face=3DArial><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
=
class=3D800265219-16092001></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FO=
NT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
face=3DArial><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT =
face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT face=3DArial><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
=
class=3D800265219-16092001></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FO=
NT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
face=3DArial><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT =
face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT face=3DArial><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001>I remember one of J's notes, it's from =
the 9th=20
august 74: he first tells us about some cases =
of self-burning=20
for example of Sphines (the Macedonians called him Kalanus) =
who=20
followed Alexander in India and decided to burn himself when he =
felt ill=20
for the first time in his life. Alexander tried to prevent him =
from doing=20
so, but then he ordered to built him a funeral pyre. The army with =
its=20
elephants, cavallery and infantery got into formation, =
Kalanus=20
greeted the sun, sank into prayer and one set fire on the pyre. =
Some of=20
the Indians jumped into the=20
=
fire...</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></D=
IV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT size=3D2>J however considers it a =
case of=20
religious madness.<SPAN class=3D050342317-10102001><FONT=20
=
color=3D#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></=
SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
=
class=3D050342317-10102001></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SP=
AN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D050342317-10102001><SPAN=20
class=3D050342317-10102001><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I am=20
of the same opinion as EJ too, as I know the majority of the =
world's=20
Muslims consider Sept. 11 to equally be a case of religious =
madness and=20
=
desperation.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPA=
N></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT face=3DArial><FONT =
face=3DArial><SPAN=20
=
class=3D800265219-16092001></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FO=
NT></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
size=3D2><SPAN=20
=
class=3D050342317-10102001> </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
size=3D2><SPAN class=3D050342317-10102001> </SPAN>Also the =
Japanese, are=20
you sure? I thought not. Certainly not one with devote=20
virgins.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><FONT=20
size=3D2><SPAN class=3D050342317-10102001><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Yes,=20
that's right, I saw a program with interviews of Kamikazes who =
survived.=20
Because the emporer was a god and they died for him they were =
promised the=20
garden.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN =
class=3D800265219-16092001><SPAN=20
class=3D050342317-10102001></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D050342317-10102001><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Thanks=20
again for your response Martin,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D050342317-10102001><FONT color=3D#0000ff=20
=
size=3D2>Abdalbarr</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></=
BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C151D8.C1977940--
Replies to this Message
Markup © John King, July 2001.