Re: _Die Schere_, EJ and Technical Development

[03643518060-0001@t-online.de (christopher brown)]

Bertil Haggman wrote:
> 
> christopher brown wrote:
> 
> > The belief in technology as the ultimate danger and fear might
> > be correctly place if it were not for the fact that this man, our
> > presumptuous school master, worships the thinking machine. I don't want
> > to be one of those skeptics that deride such thinking, but somebody has
> > to.
> 
> Am no expert in cybernetics myself but
> I understand that Professor Warwick
> knows what he is writing about. If he
> is correct the development would be
> much in the line of what EJ has been
> predicting since he choose to warn
> instead of admire.
> 
> Also consider this short quote by FGJ:
> 
> "Die Ohnmacht der Staaten gegenueber den
> exoplosiven Vorgaengen, welche die Durch-
> bildung der Technik zur Folge hat, ist
> offensichtlich. Es gibt keinen Staat,
> der diese Vorgaenge meistert, denn in alle
> staatliche Organisation hat sich die
> technische hineingeschoben; sie hoehöt den
> Staat von innen her aus. Der Mensch meistert
> die mechanische Gesetzlichkeit nicht mehr,
> die er selbst in Gang gebracht hat. Diese
> Gesetzlichkeit meistert ihn."
> 
> (F-G Juenger, _Die Perfektion der Technik_,
> Frankfurt 1953).
> 
> Think we have to read FGJ DPdT on the side
> when reading _Die Schere_ by EJ.
> 
> > And as this is a battle between the titans and the "gods" as it were.
> > We already know what has happend. The divine overcomes the titanic.
> 
> No, the divine has not, according to EJ, overcome
> the Titans, who will rule in the 21st century,
> but possibly by the 22nd or 23rd centuries again
> will be defeated and God or the Gods will return.

I think you misunderstood what I said and i hadn't quite properly
phrased it. What  I meant was that in the Mythos the gods had overcome
the titans, and from that perspective both E.J. and Myself expect the
same to happen again. (By the way I do not believe that EJ or Heidegger
are Pantheistic. What the us of word like the gods is a representative
phrase for the Divine. When we look at the their writings they quite
clearly point to a unified view of the Divine and God. I bleieve the use
of such terms are to access the deeper sense of history of the earth. Is
Metahistory correct here? Certainly it is a direct correlation of
Erdgeshcichte and Erdgeist.)

> > the moment we are already slaves to the machine anyhow. What is left? As
> > Martin Heidegger said in the final Spiegel interview, "Only a god can
> > save us now." Which is exactly the point. This man sees nothing of the
> > hidden worlds and the divine, while both the great thinkers (EJ and
> > Heidegger) of this age are awaiting the return of just that, the divine!
> 
> It is possible that Professor Warwick
> in his book presents a scheme on how
> the march of the machines will be stopped.
> No doubt one has to read his book !

I guess I am commentating only on a commentary, so Yes we should read
the book. But I also know, that reading the book would certainly not
change my view of such matters. 

> > Artificial intellegence if it does exist, would be the ultimate
> > manifestation of nihilism. Some questions would arise like "Will I
> > dream?" That is can a machine become self aware. The potential is small
> > for the machine that truely thinks. Thinking is not the compacity to
> > compute solutions otherwise we as human beings would compute rather than
> > think. No, what thinking is, is being open to impulses from Being (das
> > Sein).This is our capacity to do all the things we do as humans without
> > the fear that we will create some monster that will devour us. Maybe
> > we've already done that (remains to be seen). Maybe it will be that in
> > twenty or Fifty or whatever, that the planet will become uninhabitable
> > anyhow.
> > In anycase, we would then certainly expect our imminent anihilation ala
> > Terminator. (I feel absurd even thinking about these things :-). That is
> > pop-culture as meaning for our age.) But really in the end it is our
> > potential to overcome ourselves, which translates roughly as our
> > overcoming the nihilism of the age, where the return of the divine is to
> > be expected.
> > This is where Junger's "optimistic" text "über die Linie" comes in. Or
> > another intersting title would be Heideggers study of technic called
> > "die Kehre". All of them concern themselves with the prognosis and
> > "überwindung" of this age.
> 
> Yes, indeed but Warwick has to be compared
> to EJ and FGJ and the prognoses would
> have to be analyzed to find a way out of the
> predicament presented in _March of the Machines_.
> 
> > This is of course presupposing that there is no divinity.
> 
> Maybe Warwick has considered divinity
> in his book ?

You've read the book no doubt? Does he consider the "gods" openly? I
mean is man the actor here or is it fate, (Schicksal, which by the way
plays a great role in EJ.) that is at work here. I know that Jünger's
view is that all of this matter is the coming to light or disclosure of
Being/Erdgeist/Erdgeschichte.

> > They might be able to compute faster, but is this really thinking?
> > As for the capabilities such as sight, hearing, and movement, we will
> > remain superior. Just an aside, Nike had a commercial in the states
> > before I left. Just shortly after "Big Blue" beat the chess champ, in
> > which Big Blue was placed on a basket ball court and had to square of
> > against Micheal Jordan or somebody of his likes. You get the picture? Da
> > machine don moove! So who wins the day? So can you teach a machine the
> > faculties of touch and coordination? It's a long shot.
> 
> But man is giving the orders ? Yes, says Warwick,
> for the time being, but man can loose control.
> We can see that already for instance in big city
> traffic. Besides one would have to take a closer look
> at nanotechnology, making it possible to create
> miniature vehicles, so small we cannot even imagine
> today.
> 
> > Life form? Bullshit! :-) As I said before they already dominate and that
> > is without intelligence. But what if they can simulate intelligence? I'm
> > scared now. :-)
> 
> Well, I wouldn't go that far.

But in the end it all remains simulation, even if they take on a "life
of their own" they will never have a soul, that is as humans and animals
have been given them. Their beings would simply be creations of mankind,
which in the end means that we are the ends and means, but I don't think
few "healthy" people would be willing to make this claim.

> > The rest of the post is a pretty grim picture, No commentary really
> > becomes possible, especially if you accept, that what he says must be
> > taken seriouly. I mean what is the final condition of these machines?
> > They would end up simulating the human being like the terminator?
> > Liquidating us because we are inferior? I do not accept his view point
> > and if it is true then somebody better take his advice and get a
> > non-proliferation treaty rolling. What's better is locking up all the
> > moronic scientists out there who combine intellingence with loss of
> > values/nihilism.:-) (Just like this idiot in America who wants to clone
> > people.) In nepal, the Sherpas think we're mad because we go to the top
> > of mountains for no reason. We have to ask ourselves if we aren't mad to
> > believe we can create things as God does?
> 
> >
> > Ernst Junger wrote:
> >
> > >> Unknown in the old languages, the great Mythos,
> > >> The Roman law, the Bible and Christian ethic,
> > >> the french moralists, the german metaphysic,
> > >> the poetry of all the world. Technical Goliaths,
> > >> dwarves on true life-therefore massive in critique,
> > >> in destruction, it is in that, hidden from them, that thier
> > >> contract lies. Defromed, atrophied, blurred in all that
> > >> which has to do with beauty and love.
> > >> Single eyed titans, spirits of darkness deniers
> > >> and enemies of all creative powers. Who can sum up
> > >> a million of their efforts without leaving one work behind
> > >> that weighs up to one blade of grass, one grain of wheat,
> > >> one mosquito wing. Far from poetry, wine, dreams, games and          >> hopelessly caught in the heresy of presumptuous School Masters.
> > >> They have there task.
> > >> Paris diaries.
> 
> The reason to use _Die Schere_ as a survival
> handbook is growing.

I would certainly agree, what is your interpetation of the "neue
Erscheinung" which we are waiting for. Is this the new appearance of the
divine after two hundred plus years of Nihilism?

Thanks for your commentaries gives the old brain a work out.
By the way I am in for "Die Schere" myself, but we have a lot of votes
for "Eumeswil" as well. 

Abdalbarr