Re: EJ, China and cyclical history

[Bertil Haggman <bertil.haggman@helsingborg.se>]

John King wrote:

> Cyclical history is an interesting phenomenon. Only slightly dafter than
> teleological histories. 

Found your designation of the cyclical view of history 
as "daft" interesting but I guess it has to do with the fact 
that it goes against the British-French rationalist view of
things. But to be honest I have met people from Britain who
are willing to discuss the cyclical view of history without
calling it "daft".  
  
  With Nietzsche's "Ewige Wiederkehr des Gleichen"
> we're in the realm of the utterly vague, celebrated as the myth of the
> Uebermensch and preached by Zarathustra. 

Fail to see the connection between the cyclical view of history
and "the myth of the Uebermensch". Although it is certainly
correct that Nietsche had an influence on OS the main
inspirator was Goethe (Klaus P. Fischer, _History and Prophecy:
Oswald Spengler and the Decline of the West_ (Durham N.C., 1977).
 
  Spengler is, of course, much more precise in his "outline of a 
  morphology of world history".
> So precise, that he forces much sharp observation and comment into the
> intellectual straight jacket of his rigid morphology. 

  John, are you aware of the fact that there is a First Spengler and
  a Second Spengler ? 1924 marked a watershed in Spengler's life. It
  commenced what has been described as "the second phase of Spenglerian
  thought", which extended to his death in 1936. After a short period of
  political activity he focused his attention on the vast period of
  civilizational development which preceeded which preceeded that of the
  rise of cultures. Among other things it was Spengler's contacts with
  the historian Eduard Meyer and the unorthodox ethnologist Leo
Frobenius
  that fuelled his interest. His goal was the composition of a major
work
  on prehistory and early civilizational history. Unfortunately Spengler
  was unable to finish the project but there are two books with material
  from the Nachlass, _Urfragen_ (Primary Questions) and _Fruehzeit der
  Weltgeschichte_ (Early Period of World History). The Second Spengler
  moved closer to Giambattista Vico and incorporated his previously
identified
  autonomous civilizations within a larger, universalist framework of
history.
  EJ, in my humble opinion, relies heavily on OS. They are both critical 
  of the technical development and identify both the real prospect of
  ecological disaster. Sorry to take up so much bandwidth on this matter
  but I thought it of interest to the listmembers to take into account
the 
  later development of Spengler when viewing his liefwork. 
  

  Of course, one can
> discern the return of similar situations and the like - IMHO that's human
> DNA speaking and most definitely not the the life of various cultural souls
> (and anyway in Vol 2 of "UdA" Spengler digresses and starts talking in more
> conventionally conservative terms about race (not biological, incidentally)
> and nations).

Thank you for noting that OS never wrote on race in what he termed
a "zoological" sense.  

   If anything is going to effect a profound change in human
> history it is the combination of genetic engineering and cybernetics (in its
> broadest sense).
> 
> One further problem with Spengler, and, in a way, with the debate on the
> "West" and "China" is the assumption that the borders betweeen cultures are
> still impervious. Globalisation? 

As noted above the Second Spengler moved away from the strict borders
between civilzations (Hochkulturen) in _Decline of the West_.  

  What makes us think that states are still
> chasing after territorial hegemony on a grand scale? And is the PLA really
> capable of effective power projection when it's busily making money for its
> generals? 

Yes, there are indeed certain PRC dimensions that would speak for
the idea that there is no possibility for China to expand. But
I was surprised to note that an Englishman only takes land forces
in account. The military threat of China is not PLA but the fast
growing PRC navy soon to include aircraft carriers.

  And where does the West start and stop? With the last MacDonald's?
> The last Coke machine? Sony in Berlin? Special economic zones in South
> China? And let's not glorify the "West" so much? If anything, Spengler's
> contribution was (even if he didn't really succeed) to attempt to turn away
> from Eurocentrism and relativise traditional history writing with its
> self-centred linearity. 

Am glad that the role of Spengler as the first civilizationst to
take other cultures into account but the western is noted above.

  The "West"/"Europe" produced an awful lot we feel
> proud of because we grew up with it and its existence is no doubt a feeling
> of cultural similarites across the continent and the globe. But it is always
> a two sided coin and much as I have little time for wallowing in guilt and
> self-pity about the past - the West is also Imperialism, environmental
> destruction, and systematic annihilation. (Here we come to EJ and the Paris
> diaries, and the essays of the early 1950s - especially "Über die Linie"...).

Like it or not it seems as if the outlines and at least superficially
western culture equals global culture. I think it is time to take a
look at EJs _Der Weltstaat_.

Greetings

Bertil Haggman
bertil.haggman@helsingborg.se