Messaggio in formato MIME composto da pił parti. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C11472.54049BE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you John! I have seen this site, = http://www.ruthvilmi.net/hut/spring95/newsgroup/fi/msg00130.html, but = there is written that the german word for indoeuropean is = indogermanisch, while it is indoeuropaeisch. Funny is the example of = words which should show the influence of the english language on the = rumanian language: alphabet alfabet aakkoset curious curios utelias fluent fluent sujuva posible posibil mahdollinen universe univers universumi I think they show only that latin hasn't had very much influence on = finnish. You write: "It would seem - from a short perusal of a couple of searches = on Google, that "indogermanisch" is generally still widely used in universities and serious institutions,..." Also in Germany? I have found the word only in older texts or in texts = written by people which were not zealous about the question, as it = seemed to me, a kind of inertia. But J is too much an aware person to = use the term by distraction. Some stubborn proudness? Love for Humboldt? and you continue: "...whereas "indogermanic" turns up a significantly higher proportion of "Aryan" type sites which use "indogermanic" to refer to some putative, original "folk" authenticity (and we all know what that means...)." I found in an italian dictionary (Garzanti, 1987) under the item = "ariano":=20 1)"who belonges to the assumed race supporting the indoeuropean = languages which etc. etc.". 2) (antiq.) in linguistics, indoeuropean: lingue ariane - aryan = languages In this second definition what has surprised me is that the politically = uncorrect term "aryan" apparently has not necessarily been created by = fanatics, and perhaps could be used also neutrally and innocently as a = synonymous of indoeuropean (if there is evidence of an aryan origine of = those languages, but I do not know enough about linguistics to comment = this). While the term indogermanisch doesn't seem very convincing to me = if used to indicate a group of languages spoken by people which were no = Indians, no Germans and no Europeans, but were just geografically spread = over Europe and India. If one wants to go beyond the sharing of geography, I can comprehend the = feeling of a common origine which the linguistic affinities prove. I can = even comprehend some "tender familiar feelings" stepping into biology, = since Cavalli-Sforza has proved that the distribution of genes is highly = congruent with the linguistic pools (a fact which probably in the future = will cause a revival of complacency to those who are fond of belonging = to the aryan language pool). But I am starteled in front of the term = indogermanic or indogermanisch. I am even surprised that it exists! In = other words: I do not understand why Humboldt has considered latin and = greek as belonging to an indogermanische Sprachgruppe. I could = understand this, if someone explained me that German (or at least the = dead germanic languages) is the language which has more in common with = sanscrit (or other oriental languages of the group) than any of the = other european languages, in this case the term indogermanisch would = have some well founded reason. But I have never heard someone state something like this and I do not = expect me such revelation, since the mediterranean area has been = populated by those who then gave birth to the european culture much = before germanic tribes arrived in the northern part of "Europe". The = latin and the greek language are chronologically nearer to the common = origine, and even knowing how much we germans can prove solidity, I = doubt wether we - or our ancestors - have conserved a linguistic fund = which the southeners had already dissipated when "we" arrived in = Denmark. There is a wonderful comment in Siebzig verweht II (Ueberlingen, 9. Juli = 1977) on a book of Wilhelm Humboldt and especially on one of his ideas = which J considered brilliant: that the indogermanic grammar anticipates = the highest development (Entfaltung) of thought. Entfaltung! He doesn't say this, but this evokes immediatly, at least to = me, the butterfly after loosing the chrysalis, still hanging at the bark = of a tree with its "up crumpled" wings hanging down and slowly filling = with oxygen and blood to assume form. But any image of unfolding is = good. J adds a remark: that one can expect that progress in thaught (one of = the few times that he uses the word progress!) will diminuish the primar = substance, because time consumes. May be he thought the german language = will resist this dwindeling more than the other languages of the family. = During his wilder years he once said polemicly about the french = "Urmeter" conserved in Paris, that German was one of the "Ursprachen". Anyway, here he was - indirectly - quoting Humboldt. And it would have = been bad taste and irreverent to change Humboldt's words. I myself = wouldn't have changed the word indogermanisch into indoeuropaeisch, if = not for other reasons, for authenticity. But we all know Juenger. He is = cunning. He has found a way to avoid the word indoeuropaeisch (which he = never uses, never, Tobias, who is very attentive to these things, = probably will conferm this) quoting an other author who becomes his = spokesman. Juenger knows the art of silence. He knows how to say us = something keeping his mouth shut. Did he ever comment somewhere the fact = that the word indogermanisch is being more and more replaced by = indoeuropaeisch? Did he ever comment the term indogermanisch? Its = unadequacy? Its adequacy? I suppose not. But he used it - in a country = in which this word is in extinction - as if he thought of it as a word = which should not be dropped and left - like a wale in trouble - to an = unkind destiny, and he didn't use indoeuropaeisch. Do not misunderstand me, I do not want to sniffle meanly around, I am = only trying to understand an attitude and a reason. He used the word = indogermanisch as if there was some other evidence beyong semantics and = beyond Sprachbau. But he didn't say which evidence. Like a finger = pointing into darkness. Another question: what gave birth to the richness of the indogermanische = Sprachbau which then took thousands of years to unfold thought? John [obviously not working hard enough this afternoon...] Martin (obviously chatting too much this afternoon) -----Original Message----- From: martin krueger [mailto:thingyding@inwind.it] Sent: 24 July 2001 14:37 To: juenger-list@juenger.org Subject: Re: [Juenger-list] EJ, DIE SCHERE #72: Note 1: Fantasy and Utopia EJ, DIE SCHERE #72: Note 1 The latter are in their > turn tersely and graphically corroborated by famous words of Heraclitus and > Napoleon. David and Goliath! Dear friends of the list! Is there someone who can explain me why J continued to call the indoeuropean languages indogermanic languages? Regards, m _______________________________________________ Juenger-list mailing list Juenger-list@juenger.org http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/juenger-list ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C11472.54049BE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4611.1300" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thank you John!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have seen this site, </FONT><A=20 href=3D"http://www.ruthvilmi.net/hut/spring95/newsgroup/fi/msg00130.html"= ><FONT=20 face=3DArial=20 size=3D2>http://www.ruthvilmi.net/hut/spring95/newsgroup/fi/msg00130.html= </FONT></A><FONT=20 face=3DArial size=3D2>, but there is written that the german word for = indoeuropean=20 is indogermanisch, while it is indoeuropaeisch. Funny is the = example of=20 words which should show the influence of the english language on the = rumanian=20 language:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial = size=3D2>alphabet =20 alfabet =20 aakkoset<BR>curious =20 curios =20 utelias<BR>fluent =20 fluent =20 sujuva<BR>posible =20 posibil =20 mahdollinen<BR>universe =20 univers = universumi</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I think they show only that latin = hasn't had very=20 much influence on finnish.<BR><BR>You write: "It would seem - from a = short=20 perusal of a couple of searches on Google,<BR>that "indogermanisch" is = generally=20 still widely used in universities and<BR>serious = institutions,..."</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Also in Germany? I have found the word = only in=20 older texts or in texts written by people which were not = zealous about=20 the question, as it seemed to me, a kind of inertia. But J is too much = an aware=20 person to use the term by distraction. Some stubborn proudness? Love for = Humboldt?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>and you continue: "...whereas = "indogermanic" turns=20 up a significantly<BR>higher proportion of "Aryan" type sites which use=20 "indogermanic" to<BR>refer to some putative, original "folk" = authenticity (and=20 we all know<BR>what that means...)."<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I found in an italian dictionary = (Garzanti, 1987)=20 under the item "ariano": </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>1)"who belonges to the assumed race = supporting the=20 indoeuropean languages which etc. etc.".</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2) (antiq.) in linguistics, = indoeuropean: lingue=20 ariane - aryan languages</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In this second definition what has = surprised me is=20 that the politically uncorrect term "aryan" apparently has not = necessarily been=20 created by fanatics, and perhaps could be used also neutrally and=20 innocently as a synonymous of indoeuropean (if there is evidence of an = aryan=20 origine of those languages, but I do not know enough about linguistics = to=20 comment this). While the term indogermanisch doesn't seem = very convincing=20 to me if used to indicate a group of languages spoken by people = which were=20 no Indians, no Germans and no Europeans, but were just geografically = spread over=20 Europe and India.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If one wants to go beyond the sharing = of geography,=20 I can comprehend the feeling of a common origine which the linguistic = affinities=20 prove. I can even comprehend some "tender familiar feelings" stepping = into=20 biology, since Cavalli-Sforza has proved that the distribution of genes = is=20 highly congruent with the linguistic pools (a fact which probably in the = future=20 will cause a revival of complacency to those who are fond of belonging = to the=20 aryan language pool). But I am starteled in front of the term = indogermanic or=20 indogermanisch. I am even surprised that it exists! In other words: I do = not=20 understand why Humboldt has considered latin and greek as belonging to = an=20 indogermanische Sprachgruppe. I could understand this, if someone = explained me=20 that German (or at least the dead germanic languages) is the language = which has=20 more in common with sanscrit (or other oriental languages of the group) = than any=20 of the other european languages, in this case the term indogermanisch = would have=20 some well founded reason.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>But I have never heard someone state = something like=20 this and I do not expect me such revelation, since the mediterranean = area has=20 been populated by those who then gave birth to the european = culture=20 much before germanic tribes arrived in the northern part of = "Europe". The=20 latin and the greek language are chronologically nearer to the common = origine,=20 and even knowing how much we germans can prove solidity, I doubt wether = we - or=20 our ancestors - have conserved a linguistic fund which the southeners = had=20 already dissipated when "we" arrived in Denmark.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>There is a wonderful comment in = Siebzig=20 verweht II (Ueberlingen, 9. Juli 1977) on a book of Wilhelm Humboldt and = especially on one of his ideas which J considered brilliant: that the=20 indogermanic grammar anticipates the highest development (Entfaltung) of = thought.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Entfaltung! He doesn't say this, but = this evokes=20 immediatly, at least to me, the butterfly after loosing the chrysalis, = still=20 hanging at the bark of a tree with its "up crumpled" wings hanging down = and=20 slowly filling with oxygen and blood to assume form. But any image of = unfolding=20 is good.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>J adds a remark: that one can expect = that progress=20 in thaught (one of the few times that he uses the word progress!)=20 will diminuish the primar substance, because time consumes. May be = he=20 thought the german language will resist this dwindeling more than the=20 other languages of the family. During his wilder years he = once=20 said polemicly about the french "Urmeter" conserved in Paris, = that=20 German was one of the "Ursprachen".</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Anyway, here he was - indirectly - = quoting=20 Humboldt. And it would have been bad taste and irreverent to change = Humboldt's=20 words. I myself wouldn't have changed the word indogermanisch into=20 indoeuropaeisch, if not for other reasons, for authenticity. But we all = know=20 Juenger. He is cunning. He has found a way to avoid the word = indoeuropaeisch=20 (which he never uses, never, Tobias, who is very attentive to these=20 things, probably will conferm this) quoting an other author who = becomes his=20 spokesman. Juenger knows the art of silence. He knows how to say us = something=20 keeping his mouth shut. Did he ever comment somewhere the fact that the = word=20 indogermanisch is being more and more replaced by indoeuropaeisch? Did = he ever=20 comment the term indogermanisch? Its unadequacy? Its adequacy? I suppose = not.=20 But he used it - in a country in which this word is in extinction - as = if he=20 thought of it as a word which should not be dropped and left - like a = wale in=20 trouble - to an unkind destiny, and he didn't use = indoeuropaeisch.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Do not misunderstand me, I do not want = to sniffle=20 meanly around, I am only trying to understand an attitude and a reason. = He used=20 the word indogermanisch as if there was some other evidence beyong = semantics and=20 beyond Sprachbau. But he didn't say which evidence. Like a finger = pointing into=20 darkness.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Another question: what gave birth to = the richness=20 of the indogermanische Sprachbau which then took thousands of years to = unfold=20 thought?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial = size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20 face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT = face=3DArial=20 size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20 size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><BR><FONT = face=3DArial size=3D2>John=20 [obviously not working hard enough this afternoon...]<BR>Martin = (obviously=20 chatting too much this afternoon)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial = size=3D2></FONT><BR><FONT=20 face=3DArial size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: martin krueger = [mailto:thingyding@inwind.it]<BR>Sent: 24 July 2001 14:37<BR>To: = </FONT><A=20 href=3D"mailto:juenger-list@juenger.org";><FONT face=3DArial=20 size=3D2>juenger-list@juenger.org</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=3DArial = size=3D2>Subject:=20 Re: [Juenger-list] EJ, DIE SCHERE #72: Note 1: Fantasy=20 and<BR>Utopia<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>EJ, DIE SCHERE #72: Note 1<BR><BR>The = latter=20 are in their<BR>> turn tersely and graphically corroborated by famous = words=20 of<BR>Heraclitus<BR>and<BR>> Napoleon.<BR><BR><BR>David and=20 Goliath!<BR><BR><BR>Dear friends of the list!<BR><BR>Is there someone = who can=20 explain me why J continued to call the<BR>indoeuropean<BR>languages = indogermanic=20 languages?<BR><BR>Regards,<BR><BR>m<BR><BR><BR>__________________________= _____________________<BR>Juenger-list=20 mailing list<BR></FONT><A href=3D"mailto:Juenger-list@juenger.org";><FONT = face=3DArial size=3D2>Juenger-list@juenger.org</FONT></A><BR><A=20 href=3D"http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/juenger-list";><FONT = face=3DArial=20 size=3D2>http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/juenger-list</FONT></A>= </DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C11472.54049BE0--
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